MDIFW gave out my email!

[Rush2112]

Ok first Harry has a post about this lawyer looking for clients, It coincides with the new ATV law they are trying to push through. I get home from work today to find out the MDIFW was forced to release my email address to some sportsman group through the freedom of information act. I did not give it to them so they could release it. It was givin so they can tell me when its time to put in for moose and any deer permits.

The state has gone too far for me to let this happen. If I wanted a sportsman group to have my email I would have givin it to them, like i did to join this forum. Now who knows what spam I going to recieve because they refused to protect my private email.

What do any of you think about this?

[Rush2112]

On the MDIFW web site Travis Barrett posted the SAM is the organization that forced them to give out our email addresses.
The following is his post with my response below it.

The link to the post is below.

http://inlandtracks.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/now-hear-this-hearing-scheduled-today-regarding-e-mail-lists/


on 01/21/2010 at 3:19 PM | Reply Travis Barrett
The group that requested our email list — through the Freedom Of Information Act — was the Sportsman’s Alliance of Maine. In no way was it designed for that information to be kept from anybody.

Furthermore, it should be noted that IF&W didn’t willingly give out the e-mail addresses. The list was not sold, nor did we offer it. It was requested through FOIA.

And one other point that should be made here is that the option to remove a name from the list was not, to the best of my knowledge, legal. Because the information requested was which e-mail addresses (and not names and contact info), they are to be included once they were on the list.

TB



on 01/21/2010 at 7:54 PM | Reply John
Well Travis If I Wanted SAM to have my email address I would have givin it to them! I gave my email to MDIFW in confidence that they would keep it private.

The state had no right to release it, now every special organization that is pushing to protect some bird or animal can come and get my email because the state let SAM do it.

Thanks SAM, I can’t wait for the first email from PETA! You couldn’t take no for an answer.

P.S. Travis an email address is contact information even without my name.

[TomRemington]

I do not know the legalities of whether this information can or cannot be obtained through FOIA. I will however comment that MDIFW must be the only department within the Maine government system that complies with FOIA requests.

[Doug Vanderweide]

The DIF&W e-mail list SAM got is virtually worthless. If anything, it's counterproductive.

Back in the old days of the Internet -- that is, about four years ago -- having a whole bunch of e-mail addresses was all you needed to spam your way to riches, because anti-spam tools in North America were not very good.

These days, you can't simply send tens of thousands of messages from a US-based Internet service provider to tens of thousands of North American e-mail addresses. Between server-based anti-spam measures and modern antivirus / antispam software, 90 percent of people won't ever see your message. If you want to spam by e-mail, you need to do so from an offshore ISP.

I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence and suggest that spam doesn't exist. There are ways to cheat the anti-spam systems. I'm simply saying that, unless SAM was to hire an offshore e-mail spamming company, or engage in some very complicated computer programming and hacking, the e-mail addresses on that list are useless.

SAM can't turn to Constant Contact or another e-mail marketing company, either. Legitimate e-mail marketing companies require voluntary opt-in / opt-out mailing lists. In other words, they don't accept e-mail addresses that were bought, borrowed, harvested or otherwise obtained through some third party. (OK, SAM could lie and say they are not using a purchased e-mail list. However, that would work exactly once, believe me.)

Ultimately, spamming is pointless, especially if, like SAM, you're in the business of creating and strengthening relationships.

I could go to a bar and ask every single woman I see if she wants to sleep with me. Eventually, that method will work. But in the process, I am going to offend a lot of people and probably start a lot of fights. For the one success I found, I laid waste to hundreds, if not thousands, of better opportunities.

SAM could find some offshore spammer, send out thousands of messages, get 5 new memberships and call it all found money. But SAM would alienate a significant majority of the people who did not respond positively. It would stain their reputation and probably lead to at least as many canceled memberships as new memberships it created.

Companies should use e-mail marketing to retain the customers they have, not to recruit new customers. (I'd recommend reading the books "Free," "Trust Agents" and "The Long Tail" if you have interest in modern-day marketing.)

If I were SAM, I would apologize for having asked for the list and assure sportsmen that I have destroyed the list. There's no scenario in which the DIF&W e-mail addresses helps SAM build its membership; that list is only hurting matters.

[Mass Mike]

I opted out of the email list the other day when I was notified that my email was given out without my permission but I'm still seething over it. I'm not sure what pisses me off more, the fact that it was given out or the fact that I wasn't given the chance to opt out as soon as the original FOI request was made. I had no idea someone was trying to get my email address until "after" it was given out. Thanks a lot IFW.

Harry, you did in fact insult our intelligence by trying to say the list is useless. SAM does not have to hire an offshore company or an email marketing company to send out emails for them. Anyone with Microsoft Outlook can make their own list and send out as many emails as they like from their own office. Every salesman in the country already does this with their own contacts. No complicated programming or hacking needed. Your info is incorrect because you are assuming an email from SAM will be considered spam. If that were true I would never receive the emails I get from the IFW, or should I say "used to get".

[Doug Vanderweide]

I opted out of the email list the other day when I was notified that my email was given out without my permission but I'm still seething over it. I'm not sure what pisses me off more, the fact that it was given out or the fact that I wasn't given the chance to opt out as soon as the original FOI request was made. I had no idea someone was trying to get my email address until "after" it was given out. Thanks a lot IFW.

Harry, you did in fact insult our intelligence by trying to say the list is useless. SAM does not have to hire an offshore company or an email marketing company to send out emails for them. Anyone with Microsoft Outlook can make their own list and send out as many emails as they like from their own office. Every salesman in the country already does this with their own contacts. No complicated programming or hacking needed. Your info is incorrect because you are assuming an email from SAM will be considered spam. If that were true I would never receive the emails I get from the IFW, or should I say "used to get".

Mass Mike: To be clear, it's me, Doug Vanderweide, who wrote the preceding passage, not Harry.

I assure you I know what I am talking about when I say that you cannot mass mail tens of thousands of e-mails from a North America-based ISP to tens of thousands of North American e-mail addresses.

I can get into the specifics if you like. There is a significant difference between someone sending out a few dozen copies of the same message in Outlook and sending large volumes of e-mail. I have made quite a bit of money fixing the problems that result when business people who believe as you do try to do as you suggest.

If you'd like to prove me wrong, I suggest obtaining the same list SAM obtained and mailing to everyone on the list from your copy of Outlook. Be prepared to find a new ISP.

[Mass Mike]

Doug (not Harry, sorry),

I disagree. SAM is not a commercial business, it's a non-profit membership organization. From what I've read I don't see them having any problem at all sending out bulk email.

Here's a link to the Federal Trade Commisions CAN-SPAM webpage.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/busines ... bus61.shtm


Here are a couple of examples of how a non-profit can send bulk email.

Scenario A: You receive an e-mail from a charity asking for a donation. You purchased a product from the organization two years ago but have not had any contact with it since then. As you follow the instructions for removing yourself from this nonprofit's e-mail list, you wonder: should you report the organization to the FTC for spamming you?

Scenario B: Your nonprofit wants to conduct a survey on a topic related to your mission. A coworker suggests purchasing a list of e-mail addresses and sending all 500 people on it a message inviting them to participate in the survey. Will your organization be violating federal anti-spam regulations if you do?

Scenario C: A charity that trains the working poor for jobs in the food-services industry starts a catering program. The new enterprise will give trainees practical experience as well as provide income for several of the nonprofit's charitable activities. A board member urges the executive director to send everyone who subscribes to the organization's newsletter a special e-mail advertising the venture. After all, the board member points out, charities are exempt from the CAN-SPAM law. The executive director asks, "Are they?"

According to Scott Johnson, a principal attorney with Ober|Kaler in Baltimore, Maryland, the answer to all three questions is "No."

In Scenario A, the e-mail is in compliance with the CAN-SPAM law for three reasons: (1) you have a transactional relationship with the organization, because you purchased something from it within the last three years; (2) a charity's request for donations is not considered a commercial message, even when it is sent in a bulk e-mail; and (3) the charity provided a way for you to remove your e-mail address from future mailings.

In Scenario B, there may or may not be a transactional relationship between the nonprofit and the people on the mailing list. Because the e-mail is not commercial in nature and is related to the organization's mission, however, it is OK under CAN-SPAM. Also OK under CAN-SPAM are nonprofit messages with information for members, renewals, surveys, or news about upcoming programs.

In Scenario C, the board member is mistaken; nonprofits—even charities—are not exempt from CAN-SPAM. It would still be OK for the organization to send the e-mail, though. Although the charity charges for its catering services, the program is related to its mission. Plus, the nonprofit has a current relationship with its newsletter subscribers. To be on the safe side, however, the organization should put the word Advertisement prominently in the message, either in the subject line or the body of the e-mail.


If I had 30 more minutes to spare I would give you a dozen ways to send out more than 500 emails a day.

[Doug Vanderweide]

MassMike: Whether a message would be in technical violation of CAN-SPAM has nothing to do with the systems in place at virtually every North American ISP that prevent bulk mailing, both at the point of origin and point of reception. Wikipedia's article on anti-spam technologies points out the difficulty of mass mailing, even if a message wouldn't run afoul of the law. I have been speaking of the technical problems with bulk mailing, not the legal problems.

Whether a message will pass CAN-SPAM muster, or whether the message is commercial, or whether it originates from a nonprofit, is of no difference to most ISPs. However, it is of great interest to ISPs whether or not their e-mail servers wind up in blackholes. If a user tries to mail a list of tens of thousands of e-mails, and the ISP actually allows all those messages to go through, that server is going to get blackholed, unless a trust relationship exists between the originating server and the recipient server. That's the primary benefit of services such as Constant Contact: They have established a trust relationship that ensures their messages get delivered; and they build that relationship on strongly enforcing opt in / opt out.

As someone who has tons of experience with the mess caused when people think they can mass mail an involuntary list, I maintain my position that probably, your ISP won't even deliver the messages if you try to bulk mail a long list; if it does, that mailing will only lead, at best, to all your future e-mail being blackholed, but more likely to an ISP ban.

You may believe you know of systems that defeat the collective wisdom and capacities of the Internet service providers. I'll believe it when I see it. I renew my challenge: If you can manage to send a message to the entire list of DIF&W e-mail addresses from your copy of Outlook, using only your ISP, and not wind up losing your Internet access as a result, I'll admit to having no idea what I am talking about.

The fundamental point remains: Regardless of CAN-SPAM or the technical difficulties of mailing a large list, spamming is pointless. It tends to create significant amounts of ill will; certainly, a lot more ill will than new business. The DIF&W list is worthless on that point alone, and I would advise anyone who wanted to mail to the DIF&W e-mail list that it is only going to backfire, even if one does so within the auspices of CAN-SPAM.

[Mass Mike]

Doug, the only part of your response that I might agree with is the part about a bulk email campaign using IFW's list backfiring on SAM. As far as not being able to bulk email thousands of recipients, I'm having a very hard time seeing where you're coming from. There is an entire industry built on bulk email marketing. Yes, many ISP's have a 500 per day limit. So what? Sending 500 emails every other day still gives you 15,000 emails per month (prior to IFW's list, SAM's website says they have 14,000 members). I own my own business and receive bulk email from dozens of companies within my industry on a daily basis. None of them have a problem with their ISP's and I assure you they are sending out thousand of emails per month.

If you're serious about the challenge, send me the list and make sure your email address is included. Tell me what message you would like sent and I will make sure everyone receives their email within a month.

Just for S's and G's, have you been told why SAM requested the list and what their intentions are? The only thing I can think of to do with an email list is to use it to email something.

[TomRemington]

A rumor is that they want to email out information about coyotes, predators, deer management, etc. They are wasting their time and causing ill will toward others. I agree they should forgo this effort, apologize and begin an opt in/opt out program for those interested.